Te Pāti Māori are even worse on criminal justice than the Greens — if that were possible. In this episode, we hear from Rawiri Waititi on whether Māori are worse off when it comes to criminal justice under the current Government, as well as his long-term vision for shutting down New Zealand’s prisons altogether.
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If you’ve heard the Green Party speak about the criminal justice system, you know that they shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near decision-making power in that vital area of our country. But Te Pati Māori really take it to another level, if that were possible. Here’s the co-leader of the Māori Party, Rawiri Waititi, earlier this week, lying, I mean, speaking about the current state of our prisons and even the plan to scrap them altogether. Are Māori worse off under this government? Oh, absolutely. Crime-wise, are they worse off? Absolutely. How? M- Māori are worse off because the numbers haven’t changed, and- Haven’t changed.
Haven’t changed and worse off are two completely different things So when you have a look at the disproportionate- But violent crime, violent crime’s come down. Violent crime on viol- on Māori violent crime has come down, too That might be one thing, but, uh, the- Is that, and it’s a very significant thing … incarceration, incarceration rates have increased. And so Māori, like I said, are disproportionately affected when it comes to justice. But education- It’s … All right, so he says that incarceration rates have increased, and that Māori are disproportionately affected, and because of this, Māori are worse off during this government. Let’s see if that’s true. All right, let’s start with the part that is true.
So this graph runs from the 1st of July, 2023 and then ends around the 1st of July this year. The gray line that goes beyond that is obviously the projection. And so July three years ago, we have just above 8,500 in total prison population, and that is now ending at just under 11,500. So we have a roughly 3,000 person increase in our total prison population. So Rawiri was correct about one thing, the total prison population has gone up. The question is, what’s the result been? Well, it’s what every sane person would expect. So I set these stats to cover the exact same period of time as the total prison population graph that you just saw, and what you’ll see is obvious. Assaults over that time have gone down. Sexual offenses are down. Harm or endangering to persons, down. Robbery, blackmail, extortion, down. Burglary and theft, all down. A total of over 100,000 of these most serious charges. That’s how much of a decrease in reports we’ve had over that time.
Now, before we go any further, this is where I think a major issue with Rawiri’s worldview is exposed. There’s this offender-first lens that he views the world through. That somehow less victims is in progress because more offenders are behind bars. Even less Māori victims, it doesn’t seem to matter to him. He just brushes it off like it’s nothing, and says, “Well, more people are in prison, and Māori are disproportionately affected.” More people are in prison and there’s less victims, so that means something necessary is happening. We could bring back the death penalty for murderers for a start. That would drop the prison population by almost 8%. But anyway, it’s hard for me to believe that Rawiri actually cares about the Māori people more than he cares about scoring political points, as he’s just desperate to spin this narrative and, and brush off something as important as less Māori victims. But what about this claim that Māori are disproportionately affected?
Well, this is where the sleight of hand comes in, because when you hear that more people are in prison and that Māori are disproportionately affected, you’re left thinking that the Māori prison population percentage has increased, especially because he’s just said that Māori are worse off under this government. Well, is that true? The percentage of Māori in prison is 52.1% as of June this year. Well, that number of 52.1% is not an increase. In fact, that hasn’t fluctuated by more than 1% up or down for almost three years, and no more than 2% for the last 10 years. Sothese stats haven’t really changed.
They certainly haven’t gotten worse under this government. In fact, the time when Māori represented the highest percentage of people in prison over the last 10 years was actually in 2022 when Labor was in government, so that doesn’t really fit the narrative, does it? And so Rawiri is either unaware of this or he’s trying to manipulate you by firing three claims at you fast enough that you think that they’re connected, to make you believe something about the state of Māori under this government that simply isn’t true.
The truth is that prisons are fuller, crime is down, and those prisons are filled with almost the same percentage of Māori that they have been for the last 10 years, give or take 2%, which obviously is not a good thing. But let’s be honest about what’s really going on if we care more about people than manipulating them for cheap political talking points. And so Māori, like I said, are disproportionately affected when it comes to justice- But it’s- … education, health, and housing. And so- So have Māori got … Hang on. Hang on. I wanna be clear here. So you- You’re looking at one, you’re looking at one side of the, the argument.
Yes, but- The other ar– part of the argument is that- if fewer Māori are being violently harassed or beaten up- Mm … that surely is something you should celebrate. Yeah, but it’s not j- that’s not, not just a Māori issue, right? So if you’re going to just say that only violent crime is committed by Māori, that, that’s, that’s, that’s not very- That’s certainly not what I s- that’s very distorting. That’s not at all what he was saying. Just straight to the victim mentality. Straight to being the victim. I said that- That’s not what I said at all … it, it, it comes across like that.
What I’m saying is that the incarceration- It comes across like that if you’re unwilling to have logical, clear communication rates for Māori, male prison population is 50, 50% Māori. Yes. It’s too high. Female prison population is 64% Māori. We’ve got a, we’ve got a government that’s building more beds to house more Māori in prisons because there’s not- If someone … Rawiri, it’s- … enough education- If the government’s building more beds, it’s to house more criminals, people that have been convicted of offenses regardless of what their ethnicity is. Somebody commits a crime, if somebody murders … If you, if I go to a petrol station and murder the forecourt attendant and you go to the petrol station and murder the forecourt attendant, we should both go to jail. Yes. Nobody’s saying that. So, so what are you saying? What is he saying?
He’s not even quite sure what he’s saying. He’s just trying to subtly manipulate you into believing things that aren’t actually true. What do you mean what am I saying? Well, what, what, what’s your point? If you do- Well, the point is that- If you do, if you do a crime, you do the time … the, the point is that relations and, and, uh, relations between the Crown and Māori under this particular government have got worse. And so if you’ve got a government whose, uh, whole regime is to, uh, to eliminate the Tiriti– See how he’s not willing to actually face the music?
He’s not willing to actually look at the stats and look at the reality, at least when it comes to criminal justice. He has to then skirt off to some broad claim elsewhere rather than actually back up the claims that he’s making about the criminal justice system. We are waiting for more legislation to attack Te Reo Māori in the public service, uh, and, and to ensure that those numbers where Māori are over-incarcerated, our, our f- our, our wāhine Māori are the most incarcerated indigenous women in the world. Um- Did they commit crimes?
You’ve got to have a look at those crimes. So many of them are in there for, for petty theft crimes, and those are crimes of poverty All right, we went over this last week with the Greens, but it’s worth going over again in case you missed it. Only 5.2% of the prison population is made up of people who are serving time for theft. And that certainly isn’t petty theft. It’s theft of all kinds, some of them very serious. And if you’re looking at shoplifting, from personal experience as a police prosecutor, to get to prison for shoplifting, you need to be making an absolute career out of it and you’ve exhausted the court’s options to help you.
You would have already received often supervision, intensive supervision, and less serious sentences such as community detention and home detention. These are not people stealing bread to feed their family. These are people stealing often trolley fullsof the most expensive goods they can find that aren’t even food, and often that is to help sustain their drug addiction. That is the large majority of cases that I saw. And even then, you have to make a really good go of it. Six months, 12 months, or even more stealing food of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars worth of goods before you can even get to spend a few months in prison. So those that are serving time in prison for theft is only 5.2%, and the percentage of women who are in prison is 7.5%. And so those men or women who manage to get themselves sentenced to prison for theft absolutely deserve to be there.
Let’s give our communities a break, our shop owners a break from time to time, and no wonder cheese is $1,000 a block. So what we’re saying is let’s address the reasons why many of them are there and start to shift the numbers. At this particular time– I, I agree with you … locking them up- We all agree on that. What we probably disagree on is what are the causes? How can we rebuild our communities and families, whether they’re Māori or anybody else? I agree with you. Uh, feasting our way out of poverty isn’t going to be the answer.
But there are times, and this is the same of- Absolutely … any ethnicity. I agree with you. You do the crime- There are times when pe- you need to be put in jail. Yep, absolutely. You know? Yep. Um, well at least we can all agree on that. But, you know, this idea that if you don’t … How can you be s- a right-wing Māori? You know, that … You know what I’m getting at here. Ed, no, what I’m saying is if you are not committed to lifting Māori from outs- from underneath the bonnet of colonial violence, then You’re just working with, with parties that have their own agenda, and that’s the, that’s the problem here.
An independent Māori voice allows a Māori voice to ensure that we start to lift our people from, uh, from underneath- Okay … colonial violence. The- I’m genuinely interested to know what he means by lifting Māori up from underneath colonial violence. What does that practically look like? I think the reason why Rawiri doesn’t think a Māori can be or should be right-wing or conservative is because conservatives believe in personal responsibility over victimhood. Conservatives believe that almost all your problems are solvable by you, your families, and your communities, and that is what many Māori do believe.
They know that as with any people on God’s earth, cycles of pain and trauma are broken through forgiveness and healthy families raising healthy children. Rich or poor, the greatest privilege any child can receive in this world is a good mum and dad that loves them and is present in their lives. Why is that not Rawiri’s message? Because that is the only way these stats that we see in indigenous people groups all over the world will begin to change.
This cultural Marxist view of looking to your so-called oppressors as the answer and solution to your problems is not going to change anything. It has not and will not. And of course, many Māori know this and are conservative, but Rawiri doesn’t want them to be because it clashes up against his cultural Marxist worldview. It destroys his political project and the political power that he’s trying to accumulate. And to ignore or to, um- When will you close them? exclude Māori, and to exclude Māori insight- When will you close them? … provides and produces poorer policy. W- what date are you gonna close the prisons by? 2040 2040 Yeah, wasn’t that the date in your, in your policy document? Yeah.
So what- Don’t wink … what we want is, what we want is a system that looks at rehabilitation- Yeah … recidivism and, and reconnection into our communities. We don’t have that at this particular time. No. And prisons are literally just there locking people up. That would be good. Prisons gone by 2040. Even he’s sheepish and laughing about it. That’s the most extreme version of an offender-first worldview that you’re gonna come across. And they can say, “Well, we’re gonna rehabilitate people so well and so much that we won’t even need prisons here in New Zealand by 2040, and we’re gonna use socialism to do it.”
They may not say that part out loud, but that is the only problem with socialism, is that it doesn’t work. And what Te Pati Māori would do today if they could, they’ve said before, is decriminalize all drugs. Probably remove those laws around petty theft. I wonder if punching a shop attendant and running out with a trolley full of food is considered petty theft. And so this removal of prisons and increase of rehabilitation obviously has the goal of making everybody good, well-behaved citizens, which I guess he thinks can be solved by giving them tons of money and resources. But I saw criminals get access to a lot of money overnight, and it actually destroyed the progress that they were making on their rehabilitation journey, because all money does to a person is expose their character even more.
Something that is successful, however, that is turning people’s lives around, that’s currently operating in our criminal justice system, it’s called the Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment Court. It’s absolutely fantastic, and it does see genuine success, genuine rehabilitation. But it can only exist because drugs are illegal. Prison is a reality hanging over their head as they make up to that two-year journey. They have complete wraparound support.
They try to address their trauma, get free from drugs, turn their life around, and it’s difficult, but it does happen. If Te Pati Māori cared about rehabilitation of Māori, they would be asking for more funding for the drug courts. Because there’s only three of them in New Zealand. There should be one in every major city so that people who are in a life of crime due to drug addiction and trauma can have a chance at rehabilitation.
And it is a long and difficult journey that with all the support in the world, many still don’t complete, but some do, and it is an amazing thing to see. Te Pati Māori’s solution is like spilling a glass of milk and cleaning it up by covering it with a rug. Let’s just pretend it’s not actually there. Well, New Zealanders are too clever for that, and that is why the Māori Party are at the levels of support they are now, and rightly so.
So let’s keep in mind the real solution to turning families and communities around, connection with healthy people, parents being there for their kids, and taking personal responsibility for their lives. Let’s keep pushing those things forward. Let’s focus our compassion towards victims and not offenders. Let’s keep reminding New Zealand of the truth, that healthy families break cycles and healthy communities build a healthy nation.
